Wednesday, October 7, 2009
Happy Hump Day!
After yesterday's lively discussion, I'm not sure I even have the brain cells left to tackle today's blog. Good ole Rameer sent this to me on Facebook and suggested it as a blog topic, so ladies and gents...here we go:
Now, first...ladies....BREATHE. It's gonna be alright :)
And for you men - stop beating your chests and calm down.
Let me just say for the record that I understand very well that this woman's mission is to sell her book. I get that. So she may be saying some stuff even SHE doesn't subscribe to - or practice. Maybe she does, maybe she doesn't...who knows. But I don't want to blindly assume that she's completely genuine in her v-blog.
But she DOES seem to have a following - and there are plenty of women out there who believe everything she says and puts it into practice.
I guess the first thing we should do is define submission:
Submission: (1) the act of submitting, yielding, or surrendering; (2) the quality or condition of being submissive; resignation; obedience; meekness; (3) the act of submitting to the authority or control of another: "Oppression that cannot be overcome does not give rise to revolt but to submission" (Simone Weil); (4) the condition of having submitted to the power of someone else; (5) the condition of being submissive, humble, or compliant.
By that definition, being submissive doesn't sound like a good thing. That's probably why it seems a bit oxymoronic to state that your POWER lies in submission -when that very definition seems like the antithesis of power.
Personally, I think she's misusing the word. I think there's a difference between creating a loving home, and being submissive. I understand the idea of "traditional" roles - but I don't think that necessarily gives way to submission. I think men and women can be partners in life - mirrors of each other that reflect our best selves. That requires two WHOLE people to come together who are willing to compromise and make sacrifices equally. A perfect partner is not one who will subjugate him or herself to you, is not someone you can control or who will never disagree with you. A perfect partner is one who is respectful of your individuality and who you can trust to challenge and stretch you in ways that help you and allow you to grow.
I did agree with something she said - I believe women are the foundation of the home, while men are the structure. I believe that our power lies - not in submission - but in our ability to nurture, be strong, be smart, emotionally resilient, caring, and in touch with ourselves while having our finger on the pulse of the world around us. Men and women are different - but not one is superior to the other.
Now, let's say for the sake of argument I'm wrong in the meaning of "submission." Let's say it means you follow your man's lead as he is the head of the household. Let's go further to say that your religious beliefs teach you to be submissive.
The bible uses the word submit for the wife AND the husband. They are to submit to EACH OTHER. Due to the widespread belief in and adherence to Christianity in the Black community, Black men in particular are big proponents of the idea of submissive women - especially if they feel powerless out in the world. The one place they feel they should be powerful is at home. I get that...makes sense I guess.
But it's a false sense of power. And subconsciously I think most men aren't attracted to women who don't think for themselves, have no opinion of their own, cannot contribute ideas and who go along with everything they say. And if he does want a woman like that, it's usually because he's lacking in some way of his own. His confidence and feelings of adequacy are fed by a women who yields completely to him. However, a man should realize that he can have a women who adores and nurtures him and their family completely when he understands that integrating two lives into a whole is greater than the sum of its parts - equal parts.
One of the male posters to her v-blog wrote this in response:
"While a woman submissive (or possibly more accurately nurturing) to her husband and household can be a beautiful and wonderful thing under the right conditions, sadly, there are plenty of no good men willing to take advantage of this. Any relationship should be give and take, and a man should be willing to accommodate the wants and needs of the woman in his life as well as his own. Open communication and sometimes a little compromise go a long way toward maintaining a healthy and loving relationship. It simply cannot be a one way street. A confident self-assured man does not want a woman to submit nor subjugate herself to him. The confident man embraces his woman as an equal partner. He is openly proud of her and acknowledges her skills and strengths as she acknowledges his. These two form a powerful, mutually enriching, mutually supportive team where the lead is taken by one then the other as their skills, education and experience dictate. Neither is relegated to a box based strictly on gender."
And enduring loving relationship demands that both men and women understand that the relationship itself is wiser than either of them individually. Relationships are more artful, and less didactic. It doesn't control, but rather leads us to discover, and challenges us to expand the sphere of our love beyond ourselves. Our power lies in mutual respect. Our power lies in our sense of accomplishment and the benefit we bring to our family, our community and the world. As women, our power lies in our resilient spirit, our joyful heart, our intelligence, and in our divine soul. The only power that lies in submission is our submission to God.
-b
62 comments:
First bitchesssssss
First bitches
So close Annamaria, SO CLOSE!
I've posted about 3 of her v-blogs. First off, let me state for the record - I pretty much agree wholeheartedly with everything Brooke-Ra just wrote. So, what then do I have to add?
Just this...I think this woman's intent is to address that segment of Black women - and there is a large contingent, if we're being honest - who think much too highly of their "Independent Woman" status, and are apt to talk about what they don't need and read brothas the riot act. These women can have such a shield up, such a high guard, that they miss out when a good man is right in front of them because they're too busy waxing poetic about what they need and how a man should be, etc.
I think I get her motivation. And yes, there are A LOT of no-good men who will take advantage of women who let their guard down. I guess the key is to use common sense in determining who you should put the work and sacrifice into. Don't be like Kandi Burress messing with a scrub and making every excuse in the book for him - no disrespect to the dead, but homie was a scrub.
I'd say watch a few of her other videos as well in addition to this one to get an idea of her whole style and approach...but again, I agree with Brooke-Ra on this. However, I think this woman's message is needed for some women, as well.
Wow a first bitches war just occurred. Anyway... I don't think there is "anything" worng with what she said. Although it may not be for everyone... I think a man should lead. BUT HE HAS TO BE QUALIFIED TO LEAD. This is a much longer conversation and in an attempt not to be a Blog Hog I won't go into deep. But in every corporation and successful partnership..someone has to be the CEO, the President, the Chair, The Direcetor. It doesn't mean that they don't LISTEN to the members of their team and take their advice sometime... but there is only one steering wheel in the car. We both can't drive. And yes..you can drive sometime.
BTW Brooke...this topic is sooooooooooooo stolen!!!
Rameer, it was hard for me to write this one - because I think her intentions are genuine. Maybe they aren't, but I think they come off that way anyway,
I get "nurturing" part. I get the "traditonal" roles part. I think there are some households where certain roles each plays works for them as a team.
I think the term submission is a bit tricky. I put the definition there, not my own, so that we can have some perspective. And I think that's where it gets confusing.
IF you're a woman who WILL submit to a man - make sure that man has some damn sense. I don't think there's anything with having a head of the household per se - as I believe women are a man's helpmate. But I think alot of women want to follow a man - ANY man - that they don't use the good sense God gave them. AN intelligent woman and an intelligent man should choose the partner whose values are in line with theirs and whose input they respect...because eventually you'll have to call on it and you want to trust that that person has you and your family's best interest at heart.
And Pretty Ricky - I gave Rameer credit for the topic!!! Just like I gave Yolanda credit for yesterday's!!!!
typo alert - what I meant to say was I don't think there's anything WRONG with having a head of the household.
I agree with Pretty Ricky on that part. If that leader is the man - so be it. But make sure that man is worthy.
I can't really argue with anything you have written, Brooke-Ra. We're on the same page on this one.
BTW - this was the first video I ever saw by her. It was very refreshing...and started hella convo on my Facebook page. I posted it EONS ago, over the summer...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOgSsIXToJ0
OK Brooke..so let me ask you a question.... should a woman look for a man that's qualified to lead? Should she look for one that will submit to her? Would that be a man that you wanted?
I don't normally comment, but I had to on this one. I'm sorry, but I can't get with this chick. I've seen her blogs before and I think she's full of it.
I have no problem working WITH my man, but honestly - how many worthy men are out there to submit to? I'm not saying there are no good brothas, but the no good ones are the VERY ones who want a woman to submit to them, because they don't feel powerful in any other way. They're your thuggin, head knockin baby daddys who don't take care of their wife and kids that want a woman to bend over backwards for them just cuz they have a penis. And that's bullshit.
A man who is a natural leader values and respects his woman, he doesn't belittle her or make her to be "submissive" to him. Only a real man knows that. All others are a bunch of insecure, triflin men who can't elevate themselves to the king status it require to have his queen.
Yeah, I said it!
@ Pretty Ricky - Yes, a woman should look for a man who's qualified to lead. But I think a man should look for the same thing - because let's face it - at some point ONE of you will have to do it. One person won't be driving ALL the time. It just doesn't work that way. Life dictates that circumstances change. It dictates that ONE of you will have to make a decision when the other can't. It dictates that one of you will exercise better judgment in a certain situation. So you have to choose the person whose judgment you trust. I think it goes both ways.
My wife will let me call the shots but she makes it very clear that she has the power of veto! All jokes aside though, we read this blog together and agree that one person can be the capitain, but it is in the capitain's best interest to listen to the first officer on occassion to avoid any possiblity of a mutiny! I don't think my wife's position is one of submissiveness but more of trust that her husband will do the right thing! I guess I agree with you Brooke
Floyd B
Thanks Floyd, and I saw your wedding photos on FB. Congrats! You both look happy and beautiful! You seem to make a great team!
Thanks Brooke...took me a long time to post! (we got married in May) We are actually expecting a baby girl early next year...so we will definitely need to have open communication in raising our child!
Floyd
oh wow! Congrats on the baby! That's great...all the best to you both! And yes, I think parenthood adds a whole new dimension to this discussion...or so I'd imagine :)
I agree with anonymous with the team thing.. I have no problem allowing my man to be A MAN... and being the woman that stands beside him to get US to where we need to be. Everything he does is to benefit our family so why shouldn't I.. Right now we something straight outta little house on the prarie. He works & I'm at home tending to the baby..LMAO.. I have a very dominant personality & don't feel I'm losing anything or demeaning myself in any way shape or form.He has and always will give me advise & cheer me on in anything I'd want to do in the future. I have his back & he's got mine. I think that's the problem with some men these days. They feel a woman is too hell bent on making sure her "independance" is stated that she doesn't allow her man to be a man & then you tell him he ain't no good. WTF.. you can't expect a man to be a man if you don't treat him like one. The same way you can't expect him to treat you like a lady if you don't act like one. Besides we all know if Austin got out of line or did something I didn't agree with I'm tasing & shanking his ass without a second thought!!!!!
yeah.. I agree Brooke. But here is the same...it's in a mans nature to be needed. We know if you really wanted to you could, cut the grass, open the pickle charge, be as independent as any song beyonce ever sang. Yeah I want a women who can take of herself if need be... but it's also nice to have a women who says...Ok Bruh... I'm putting my trust in you... you got this and I got your back! To be honest... I would never want my women to HAVE TO lead... but of course if something happens to me I know she can. I'm the kinda guy that will drive from here to California if I could... letting my woman relax, sleep, and WHATEVER she wants to do. But I also want a woman who if I get tired and i nee a break I know that she can get us through Montana on Nevada. hoping that makes sense.
I think alot of women out here would have NO PROBLEM letting a man be a man - IF HE WAS WILLING TO BE ONE! Half the men out there don't know what being a real man is, yet want a woman to submit to them. It's like all that bitchassness talk Brooke and Rameer were talking about. Too many bitchass men want a women to bend to them, but won't step up and do what a man is supposed to do. I think if we had more REAL MEN out here, women would GLADLY let them lead. But since there aren't, WE have to lead OURSELVES and our households. And because we've had to do it for so long, it's hard to let your guard down because we've gotten so good at taking care of ourselves. Show me a REAL MAN and I'd HAPPILY let him lead.
@ Pretty Ricky - I think we basically agree. And I think like Jaz said, most women would have no problem letting a man lead, making him feel needed AND wanted. I agree with that. If there were more men out there like you, then we wouldn't be having this discussion :)
Question to Jaz...
Are you in NYC as well?
I ask, cuz man - I've heard for damn-near twenty years how awful it is there for women FROM women. And I even can say most of the NYC dudes were def a rare breed, though nowadays, bitchass men run rampant everywhere.
But I must admit - NYC seems to be the capital of the single Black & Latina woman from everyone I talk to in different regions...
So that's why I pose the question...
Yes Rameer, I live in NYC, and it's the WORST!!!
Second biggest city in the world...I'll never understand why so many Black & Latina women have such a difficult time...
Especially since I know mad NYC dudes, and they seem to be cool as hell. But then again, any bitchass or crab suckas, I disassociate with ASAP...
In any event, like I said earlier - I think this woman's vlogs are intended for a very specific contingent of women, that may not apply to some of the women on this blog, per se...
Honestly, I think when it comes to the mere "subject" of such discussion, women really lose sight of the intended message.
I speak from MANY sides of experiencing it first-hand, however, the rampant misconception is women equate the premise of submission with "weakness".
Its not AT ALL about that.
This type of subject is highly volatile, and i dont want this to go off in another direction.
But, see here's the thing:
Speaking for myself, I would like a strong woman. I always have. The problem becomes the strength of a woman who's actually strong enough to carry her own sword stabbing her man with it constantly, cuz she ain't quite figured out how the thing works. Be strong with the cable guy (no offense) when he doesnt show up with the right equipment for the install. Instead, why I gotta "be the bad guy?" You just told me all the reasons why YOU were pissed at him. Then, go tell him. IF we are equal.
Moreover, men get attitude from women on the subject of equality in a relationship. However, when there's a dead rat in the garage next to her car, that's when she's the woman, and he's the man who should handle it. After all, its just gross!
When something goes bump in the night, we aren't equal. The man is expected to be what's needed, and either fight to the death to defend the place, bite somebody's kneecaps, or dodge bullets and kill the assailant. Sadly, this is how it goes...
(bump in the night)
Dude: ZZZZZZ.
Woman: Did you hear that?
Dude: No.
Woman: I heard something downstairs.
Dude: OK (grabs the pistol in his boxers)
And see? We're the bodyguard. We provide the sense of security on both of these.
By the way, I (literally) have a million of these, but you ladies will fight off the notion.
The bottom line here is...Relationships arent about 50/50. Things are not equal.
Some things will be 80/20.
Hell, some things will be 99/1. But when the man is the one getting the majority, we gotta discuss it on blogs.
What man is NOT submissive on Valentine's Day? A Woman's birthday? Anniversaries? All of THAT is for women. Of course, you ladies will say - I always go all out for my man, but ask the guys. We all walk around knowing this and giving each other the head nod, cuz we live it.
And ---- men BETTER be submissive on those days, or they aint about nothing.
Father's day? An afterthought.
Mother's Day? Her birthday?
The world ceases to revolve while we pay homage, and as we should. However, its supposed to be equal right? 50/50.
Ummm-hmmmm.
Now, lets get to it.
DMoe
What a turn, what a turn. We've gone from running red lights to "boo-gina" lovin' and now submission! I'm glad this ain't about S&M type submission...then I'd really be wondering what Brooke's been up to.
I'm independent...yaada yaada. I'd like to NOT be, but it is what it is. If I'm not, the bills won't get paid. And homelessness is not cute.
I'm down with submitting and all that. At my core, I'm very old fashioned. I want the man to be a man. Hell, I like that isht! TELL ME WHAT TO DO, BROTHA! Problem is, there are a lot of men out here who are clueless and really aren't the kind of people you'd even WANT to submit to. I'm not gonna entertain the idea if you're not a leader in the first place.
My search continues... (or until Rameer grows 2 inches and decides to wife me)
DMOE..
I agree with you 100%... It's funny cause Austin always says mother's day you can't get a table anywhere. But on father's day the same restaurant is EMPTY... Sad but definitely true... :(
And hell yes I want him to pick up the dead rat, kill the intruder (using my taser of course) kill the bugs, mow the lawn, etc etc...If I gotta keep my ass in the kitchen for him to do that...SOO be it.
BUT I must say he does make a slammin pork chop..LOL
Yolanda...You HILARIOUS!!!
Again, I say...a bunch of shit.
Maybe the women in YOUR life are that way, but most women I know treat the men the same way they want to be treated on Valentines Day. Maybe YOU are a man that goes all out on her birthday, Valentines Day, anniversaries. But not all men are YOU.
Like Rameer said, this message was meant for a specific type of woman. And from what I've read on the blog, most of the women on this blog aren't the trifling sistas you're talking about.
Maybe YOU live that truth, but most women I know have to remind the guy that it's her birthday, let alone him be submissive on that day. They can barely get a damn card! SO please, spare me.
And again, if you're the man that goes to check what goes bump in the night, or kills the rat, or whatever else - then YOU'RE A MAN. The blos is about women submitting to a man and keeping a happy home and letting him lead. So if I'm cooking, cleaning, taking care of hte kids and you - then HELL YEAH - YOU GET UP and see what goes bump in the night. I think you're missing the point.
As Brooke said, it's not always equal, some days she will lead, other days he will lead. It's about having a partner who you TRUST to lead.
Now see - why you gotta throw a brotha under the bus for being short??
Yeah, I'm 5 ft 8 - but so was Barry Sanders. And HE'S the greatest!
Not saying I'm the greatest. After all, I ain't ARROGANT. It would be absurd for me to claim I am without a shadow of a doubt, I've got no clue who everyone has dated or been exposed to.
So no, I ain't the greatest.
But I am ONE OF THEM.
;-)
BTW...back on subject...
DMoe. I feel you, brotha. And yeah - when you spin it that way, I think every brotha knows EXACTLY what you mean on that tip...
Are we talking about remembering birthdays or being submissive.
If your woman forgets your birthday, or doesn't go all out for you on Father's Day - that's something else. That's about thoughtlessness. Not about equal rights or who submits to who.
Same goes for a man.
I don't think that's what this blog is about. If we're talking about traditional roles and the man being the protector - what are you saying? If you're the protector, the woman is the nurturer...yes? Now if you're doing the protecting and she's not doing the nurturing - again, that's something else.
It depends on what your definition of submission is. The definition in the blog made it about surrendering, being meek, and yes - weak. If submission means something else to you, then give us YOUR defintion. I think that's where it gets tricky...because submission may not be the word the woman in the vlog should have used. What does submit mean to you DMoe?
Hey Jaz,
Let me say this:
This is supposed to be about the right "everybody" being submissive.
This certainly ain't about submitting to a clown. The same thing could be said for men.
There are plenty of dudes who ARE taught how to treat a woman and end up getting taken advantage of based on the fact that SHE wouldnt recognize the good dude if he was attached to her. Then again, if SHE wasn't trained correctly on how to nurture and care for a man, she's gonna screw that up also right?
You speak pretty quickly on the man that falls short.
Chances are, their fathers fell short, or weren't there at all to teach them the important things. Are little girls any different? Nope.
And we both know those little girls are missing out on how to interact with men in relationships at young ages and grow up to be full-grown women in relationships.
What kind of girlfriend/spouse/mate might she grow up to be without that same valuable training? Will she know exactly what a man needs on certain levels?
Of course, there are exceptions. Of course, there are men who don't need to be leading, and/or aren't capable. However, a certain kind of leader gives the followers a voice. A voice to speak concerns, a voice to let him know what's going on, etc. What if the "follower" is being led by the right leader and doesn't know how to follow properly? Cuz, you know...There's that.
Dmoe
Yolanda give Rameer a chance!!!!
***Disclaimer: I've never met either one of you soo if it don't work out it's not my fault!!!***
LMAO...
Uh...
I'll be right back.
***gets fold-out chair, popcorn and Welch's Mango Twist, waits for convo to heat up even more***
Rameer...we're the same height. I just like messing with you.
Like the kid who pulls hair in school. Consider it a love tap. LOL.
I think a lot of women don't know how to submit because we haven't seen it. My parents split when I was about 5 (they're still married, technically). So I've never seen my Mom be "submissive." I've seen it among my grandparents but not on a daily level. I think that's also a hang up for a lot of "independent women." We just don't have the examples either.
And another thing...let's not demonize the word independent either. If the broad is TOO clingy, ya'll get mad at that too.
I've gotta cop some Mango Twist, BTW.
Sounds good.
My two cents.....
From the stone age, the man hunts and the woman tends the home.
Nowadays, many women have to fend for themselves to survive. If this happens, its hard for her to revert back to the role of the supporter.
Then she puts together in her mind what a "man" is and should do. If he doesn't fit "her" bill, then he is triflin.
This can be nutured into them, past experience or a number of things to cause this mind state.
Personally speaking, in a past relationship, I'll admit to her trying to immasculate to the point we almost went toe to toe. I would never hit a woman (but in the words of Chris Rock - I will shake the shit out of a B*tch!)
And she had the nerve to actually say, go ahead, hit me! I don't know if y'all saw Kevin Hart's standup but he is so right when he said why does a chick act surprised when a dude hits her when she dares him to! lol......
Anyway....I can't say men and woman are equal for many of the reasons already stated. I do kill the bugs and mow if necessary but I know my girl has my back if that spider tripped me up!
A woman should always "support" her man if he is doing what he needs to do. If you want to call it submission, so be it, but I think its the concept as opposed to the word we should be gettin at
That's more like a $1.55 but hey..................
Exactly Dmoe... Jaz... while I respect your opinion... it sounds like the man that you speak about, is not really a man at all. Hell no you are not supposed to be "submissive" to a guy like that. And if you want to take it a step further.. you shouldn't even be with him. So let me just say this... if you are not with a man that can be your King... then you are absolutely with the wrong man..and you have settled for something less then you deserve! I agree... I think the word submissive is being thrown about very loosely in general. Like someone said..submissive doesn't mean dumb... does not mean can't do for yourself... submissive just means play your role. It's not for you to kill the rat... you;re not supposed to open the doors for me... personally I love the phrase that my mom used to say to me when I was young "Wait until your father gets home." I know that meant shyt was about to hit the fan. I was supposed to be scared of my father..and run to my momma when I got a boo boo. What's wrong with traditional roles??? Why is that like a cuss word now in the black community. I just don't get it!
Here's the same woman explaining what she meant by submissive:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mOPfn5jydoY
@ Yolanda - the same woman (I'm starting to seem like an expert one this woman - lolz!) said something about how harmful it can be to claim the title independent. Her basic thesis was independent means you don't need anyone, and that's not true if you want to be in a good relationship - we NEED our partners for a variety of things. Love, companionship, friendship...too many to name.
She said the term women SHOULD be claiming is SELF-SUFFICIENT. Gotta say - on THAT point, I'm in complete agreement.
Being a leader and remembering birthday are 2 totally different things - so I guess we need to pick a point and stay on it.
@Pretty Ricky - I wouldn't be with a man that wasn't a king. Once I figured that out, he'd be deaded. My comment wasn't about settling, and it wasn't to dismiss traditional roles. All I said was that most women would have no problem submitting to a good man if there were more of them out there. Of course it takes us knowing how to recognize him and respect him. But like Yolanda said, sometimes it's hard to give up that control when you've been taking care of yourself for so long. And those are the women I think the vlog was intended for, as Rameer pointed out. But for the women who DON'T need that message pointed it to them, I think our dilemma is finding that man who we can give that trust to.
Well put Mr. Powerz.... AND that is why your dinner will be ready when you get home..LOL......
I honestly HATE when women say there are no good men around. Because there are you just haven't met the man that is good for you...
The same way a man can't say there are no good women around. He just hasn't met the woman good for him.
All men & women have the potential to be the ideal mate. WITH THE RIGHT PERSON...
Jaz you just might not have found that right person
Just so I'm clear, let me ask the group something. Are ALL of you in agreement that a man is supposed to lead, be the head, the boss, whatever you all want to call it?
Are you all saying that no two people - man and woman - can exist equally in a relationship the majority of the time?
Oh, I know I haven't found him yet, and I know I will. I think I said earlier that I'm not saying there are NO good men - I just said it's hard to find one to submit to. And that's if "submit" is the right word. I think I like Powerz word better - "SUPPORT" - and that goes BOTH ways, not just the woman supporting her man, but the man supporting his woman.
Let me get this straight.
@Jaz, you just said more women would submit if there were more good men out there?
Well, let me ask this -
How many women fight themselves (and him) on the mere thought of "submission" (on certain things)?
How many women battle with their own ideals of the women who trained them along the way and ended up getting played?
How many say to themselves "that will NEVER be me...I won't allow it. How? I won't submit (in a certain way)"
How many women battle with what kind of man their "good one" actually is when they hear something they don't wanna/feel like/care to hear? (Of course, there are exceptions)
Meanwhile, what's all of this like for THE MAN to deal with as the woman deals with ALL of that?
Last point: Leadership is about doing so by example. Birthdays are about thoughtfulness. Think about it - its the one day god gave YOU, a celebration of your beginning and life to this point.
If a woman in a relationship doesnt put the same amount of energy into her man's bday, as she would into her career, the Maxwell concert, her sister's drama with what she's got goin' on, etc. (whatever life brings) - the man ends up getting what's left after she deals with all of that.
Thoughtfulness and leadership are kinda in the same league, sport and ballpark. Good leaders are great thinkers.
DMoe
I'm going to call my mom & thank her...A lot of you made valid points about you learning how to support your mate. My mom always took care of my dad & always had his back so it's just in my nature to want to take care of my man. BUT it's true..If you never had that example then how would you learn that.
In Jaz's defense, she didn't say there are NO good men, she said it's the one who AREN'T good that want a woman to submit to them.
I think alot of our comments are getting jumbled up into assumptions. And I think for the most part we all agree that you have to choose a partner who supports you JUST AS MUCH as you support them. No, it won't always be equal, but it should be close to that the majority of the time.
Which leads me to answer Stef's questions. Should a man be the head of the household? I think that answer depends on how you view "traditional" roles. I think some people who value traditional roles will say yes, while some possibly more progressive (not sure if that's the right word) people will say that roles should be defined based on their commons goals and values. This varies from person to person - so it's hard to answer that in general. Some men feel that a woman has just as much say and lends just as much weight to the relationship and family structure as they do - so can't really answer for everyone.
I think it should be close to 50/50 the majority of the time, but that's just me. I know it won't happen all the time, but I think that should be the goal.
I also saw that video Rameer posted about using the word "self sufficient" instead of "independent" - and I agree with that.
Taking care of your man means what? I just want to understand that. How about you take care of EACH OTHER? I think it's great you take care of your man and that your mother took care of your father. But I think that's where women get tripped up. It's not our JOB to, it's a WILLINGNESS to. Just as a man should be willing to take care of his woman. It's a two way street, just like the male commenter from Brooke's blog said.
A real man won't want a woman to take care of him. He'll want to take care of her. It would be equal.
And before you say it Annamaria, well all know that Austin takes care of you, and no I'm not stomping on your comment. I'm talking in general here.
@DMoe, we're not talking about the women who won't submit, we're talking about the ones who would, but just haven't found a man to submit to. My beef isn't with the good guys, it's with the ones who use "submit" as a blanket statement to apply to all men in relationships when they themselves don't even understand the word.
I'm just wondering why Jaz doesn't comment more often. You better join the daily convos, Ms. J!!!
@Jaz,
I read your last comment like 5 straight times, but this line is eating my curiosity:
"A real man won't want a woman to take care of him. He'll want to take care of her. It would be equal."
How exactly is THAT equal care?
Can you clarify that one, because I can see the 'real man' wanting to take care of her, but how exactly will the woman care for him again? I don't see that part written anywhere.
I'm sure you'll insist on knowing this already, but the realest of us men will always need what a woman can provide in "taking care" of certain things, at certain moments, on certain levels.
Dmoe
@ Dmoe, this is what I mean.
"Any relationship should be give and take, and a man should be willing to accommodate the wants and needs of the woman in his life as well as his own. Open communication and sometimes a little compromise go a long way toward maintaining a healthy and loving relationship. It simply cannot be a one way street. A confident self-assured man does not want a woman to submit nor subjugate herself to him. The confident man embraces his woman as an equal partner. He is openly proud of her and acknowledges her skills and strengths as she acknowledges his. These two form a powerful, mutually enriching, mutually supportive team where the lead is taken by one then the other as their skills, education and experience dictate. Neither is relegated to a box based strictly on gender."
That is from the MALE commenter Brooke put in her blog - THAT'S what I mean.
Ahhhh!
I just got it...
@Jaz - I think I figured it out.
Did you mean -
"A real man JUST won't want a woman to take care of him. He'll want to take care of her. It would be equal."
I added that JUST. Did I get that right?
DMoe
oh, and @ Rameer - I always want to join, but work keeps me from it. I just happens that today, most of my office is out today at an offsite, so I have time to kill and a good discussion to do it with. I wanted to jump in yesterday when I got home, but I don't really do the TMI thing :)
@Jaz/DMoe:
Yes I think that's what she meant in which she is correct.
I am WILLING to take care of Austin the same way Austin takes care of me..
I have a question for Jaz though and anyone else who wants to answer...
(playing devil's advocate)
Are you nurturing by nature???
Meaning when you start dating a guy do you wait to see what he is going to do before you start being "That good woman" OR are you like that from jump??? Just curious.
@ Dmoe - I thought I was clear before when I wrote: "How about you take care of EACH OTHER?" and when I said "a man should be willing to take care of his woman. It's a two way street, just like the male commenter from Brooke's blog said."
Sorry if that slipped by you. But again, it should be equal, not just one feeling like it's the other person's job to do the "taking care of" thing.
I'm gonna let Jaz and Dmoe go at it.
As for Annamaria's question - I think I'm a nurturer by nature - but you have to be smart about it. Not everyone is worthy of that special thing that I bring...and sometimes it's hard to reign it in when it comes so natural to you.
You have to be careful, because some men will take advantage of that if they know it's your nature to be nurturing. Others will appreciate it. You have to learn to recognize who is deserving of that special treatmenat and who isn't - so sometimes that means waiting to get to know someone a little better before you let all of that nurturing out on them.
But I don't think that means being the complete OPPOSITE of yourself either. It just means using your judgement so that you don't feel taken for granted or advantage of later.
Rameer's an expert on EVERY woman... don't ya'll know that :-)
Ok, so I'll buy "self sufficient" for $600, Alex. It's all semantics really. I don't wear the "I'm Independent So Screw All Men" tee shirt. But I am independent in the "financial" sense. In the emotional-love connection sense, sure, there are things I need that can only be fulfilled by a man. I mean really, don't we ALL as humans have the desire to feel needed, relied upon, uplifted and, yes, cared for?
I would never say anything about not NEEDING a man. I want and NEED one right frickin' now. But, I'm working on patience. And I've learned carrying baggage is not the move. Each new person is a new experience. It's awful to put previous relationship characteristics on your new man/woman.
I do think ole YouTube homegirl has many valid points and I agree with her a lot, but she does play semantics a little bit to sell her book and overall theories.
in⋅de⋅pend⋅ent
–adjective
... not influenced or controlled by others in matters of opinion, conduct, etc.; thinking or acting for oneself: an independent thinker.
... not dependent; not depending or contingent upon something else for existence, operation, etc.
... not relying on another or others for aid or support.
And yaada yaada yaada... there were like 16 definitions. My eyes glazed over.
Brooke very well said... I just wanted to pose that question because like you said you shouldn't be the complete opposite of yourself either. If you are you could send the wrong signals & then why would the other person put themselves out there?
@Annamaria,
Yes, I'm extremely nurturing by nature. I think that's why this blog touched a nerve with me. I want to be the woman who showers her man with praise, who cooks his dinner, who draws his bath. I want to do all those things for a man who deserves it - for one who would do the same for me.
But that's why I think you have to get to know someone first. Cuz I've done the wrong thing before. I was that woman who would cook for a man on the second date. I would pick him up a little something just because I was thinking of him. I'd do all the things a girlfriend or wife would do without having the title. And that's what I mean about the guys who WANT all those things, but they themselves KNOW they dont' deserve it. They're the ones who want a wifey, but won't call you wifey. They're the ones who want you to take care of them, while they're not taking care of you and the kids (I don't have kids, just speaking in general).
Alot of times, men want you to be everything that a "good" wife or girlfriend is without putting in the work themselve - or who refuse to commit to you. So to answer your question - yes, I am a nurturer, but NOW I hold that back til I think the man deserves to see that side of me, just like Brooke said.
Jaz, I hear you on that. Sometimes it's hard when you're really feeling someone and WANT to be all those things, even when you know you shouldn't or they haven't given you a reason to be. Being a nurturer by nature can be great in some aspects - like being a mother - and difficult in others - like determining when and when not to be in new/uncertain relationships.
You live and make mistakes and hopefully learn. That's all you can do.
But trust me... being a provider by nature is just as tough!!!!
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