Wednesday, January 6, 2010

Putting a Ring On It...

Happy Hump Day!

So, over my weeklong vacation, I watched a lot of tv and read a lot of magazines. Is it me, or was last week “Single Black Females Will Never Get Married” week? I mean, there was an ABC News Nightline special report on it, an article, Dr. Boyce Watkins blogged about it – everywhere I turned, there was SOMETHING written about the plight of the single Black women in America who will never, ever get married. If you missed some of it, take a look:

We’ve discussed this before – and the numbers continue to be daunting. We all know we outnumber black men, so even if every available Black man married a Black woman, there would still be over a million Black women left without a man. And yes, we can broaden our horizons and be open to dating outside of our race – but the reality is we aren’t as coveted by other races as Black men are. A white, or Asian or Indian man might DATE a Black woman – but he probably won’t bring her home to mama and make her his wife.

And let’s not focus on incarcerated men, or uneducated men, or under or unemployed men. Those are systemic societal issues all their own that make it impossible for a Black man to stand a chance in America, let alone in a relationship – a blog for another day.

But my question isn’t why aren’t Black women getting married – but why aren’t Black men proposing? What does it take to make your boo “wifey?”

All these “if you like it then you should’a put a ring on it” anthems are cute – but for real, what’s going on? I think I might have the answer…

A male friend of mine said the other night that Black women need to compromise in order to get a man – compromise their standards, lower their expectations and be more “realistic.” Okay, fine…let’s entertain that.

But what are Black MEN compromising? After all, I’m guessing that statistically, they have a better pool of women to choose from - so they don’t have to “date down” so to speak. Now don’t get me wrong, just because someone is successful or makes a certain amount of money or has a specific education doesn’t mean that they’re a good person...or a bad person. But finding a quality woman, I’ve been told, seems to be easier for men than the other way around. So if that’s true, what are men compromising?

His response?

“The compromise is that he’s marrying you.”

Ahhh…ok, I get it now.

I think therein lies part of the problem. Some…maybe most…men view marriage as a compromise, not a commitment. They see it as something they’re surrendering to instead of a union that they’re entering into willingly. If that is the case, then we’re truly in trouble.

Now, I know most men in this forum will say they’d like to get married someday. Some would even argue that most Black men would love to settle down. But how attractive can settling down be if you can have 4 or 5 quality women in your rotation?

I’ve had a man tell me TO MY FACE that he’d like to keep me in his back pocket til he was ready to settle down, but expected me to be a good girl and wait for him…and not see anyone else.

Yeah…I laughed at that too…

But men seem to enjoy the fact that the odds are in their favor – and they fully indulge in the buffet of women who are “compromising” to be with them. So is this why men aren’t proposing? Marriage just isn’t attractive to them?

Sure, Black women can be seen to have an attitude, are too picky, too hard on the brothas, too “independent,” too strong or pushy, you name it. But it can’t all be our fault either. And if there are more good Black men out there than we realize, why aren’t they proposing? Is it because Black women are settling for being baby mamas? The side chick hoping he comes around? The woman who’s been with him for 10 years hoping he finally wants to make her “official?” Or is it simply out of our hands and we have to play the hand we’re dealt?

I’m curious to see what men have to say about why they won’t put a ring on it…and if there’s anything they feel women are doing to sabotage their own happily ever after.

Break it down.




Rameer "The Circumstance" said...


Rameer "The Circumstance" said...

I've had this discussion a GAZILLION times over the years. Like I always say - I can't defend the bad brothers amongst us; I know it's hard out here for the sisters to choose from. But your boy had a point about the compromise thing with *some* sisters - and compromise doesn't mean go beneath yourself all the time. Let me be blunt - we as Blacks (ALL OF US, male and female) tend to be the most entitled-minded of all non-white groups in this country. Meaning, we feel we are OWED certain things. This translates to successful Black women sometimes feeling they are OWED a man who is at least 6 ft 2, has a master's, makes 90k or better, will financially take care of a woman, follow whatever rules she sets out, has a body like Tiger Woods (little joke for all the women just now noticing the guy is in shape cuz of that magazine spread), etc.

It's not out of the realm of reality to have expectations. But most successful guys don't have the mental checklist that many eligible Black women have. So what if she isn't 5 ft 7. Her skin isn't caramel honeysuckle? Oh well - chocolate is beautiful too. She only has a bachelor's? Hey - my mother didn't even have THAT! Her hair isn't a pretty as Ananda's? Well, what she is working with is cool enough for me.

There is A LOT of truth to the fact that many men (of all colors) realize they are outnumbered and have options. But I hear women - at least half of the type I would call eligible - put out ridiculous rules, parameters and checklists all the time, and talk with attitude about how a guy BETTER fit all criteria or that men need to "step up". Funny thing is, these same women complain EVEN MORE cuz they'll take a chance on a guy who has NONE of their criteria, but won't give the guy who has some a shot. Why? Cuz the guy who has none may have looked like Michael Ealy/Idris Elba/Trey Songz, and he had "swagger".

Then the rest of us men have to hear how we ain't SPIT cuz of the bad choices THEY made. Uh-huh.

On this very blog, I've read women address their disappointment when a guy they were with marries the next chick. While I won't say there was anything wrong with you guys - I don't have the details of your relationships - I will say that I'm sure some of those girls had to have had SOME quality that made them marriage material to those guys that you didn't seem to possess. It's a possibility, right?

The brothers over at VerysmartBrothas actually tackled trying to detail some reasons as to why fellas won't put a ring on it. It's actually pretty insightful to some women, I think:

Jay said...

Well, what I will say, is that NO, it's not all women's fault. I'm even willing to say that the majority of the problem IS with the brothas. But to Rameer's point, there are some good dudes out here, but they don't fit the alpha male criteria most women seek. I can understand that, it's in your nature to go after alpha male - survival of the fittest, strong offspring, etc. I get that.

But ALPHA male isn't just about physique, or material things. It's about character. While I know that you all outnumber us, the ones that ARE eligible are being overlooked because they may not be physically attractive to you, or come off as great providers or are on your education level. I'm not saying you HAVE to date someone you're not attracted to, because I understand that attraction is attraction - but I'm just stating the truth. It's always going to be lopsided unless someone dates someone else that they wouldn't look at otherwise.

What I also say, to Rameer's point about dudes marrying the next chick, is that she may not have had something you don't have at all. It could simply be that he was ready. Most men I think want to settle down...EVENTUALLY. You could be the greatest person in the world - and he KNOWS this - but will still not marry you because he's not ready, he's afraid, he may not be where he wants to be in life, a bunch of things...and it has nothing to do with you. Many a man has let a great woman go who he knows is wifey material simply because he couldn't give her what she wanted or needed or because he wasn't done playing the field.

I say all that to say, don't lower your standards for anyone, but don't have a ridiculous list of impossible traits that no man could possibly possess. Find a balance without losing yourself, and the man you want to be with will find you.

Anonymous said...

What I have noticed is that most black women can’t fathom the idea of dating outside of their races. Most of us (as Rameer pointed out) feel we are owed not just a man but a BLACK man who is at least 6 ft 2, has a master's, and makes 90k or better. We may think about it but we don’t project that we really are open to actually going outside of our race because we are “fiercely loyal”. How many of us know that woman who just won’t let go of that black man because she is afraid that she’ll never find another—so, she puts up with his buffoonery. Black men are sought after by all ethnic groups but guess what – so are black women.

Case in point: my sister Samantha. She has been dating a Japanese man for almost 2 years. Not just any Japanese man; one straight out of Japan that me met there!! Osamu loves my sister not because she is a black woman but because she is a good woman and vice versa. My sister has always been open to dating anyone who stimulates her mentally no matter his racial make-up and men of all races seem to want to speak to her or just be around her. They don’t generally see her as a “black” woman…they see her as Samantha.

I use to think that no White / Asian / or Indian man would ever look twice at me so I never looked at them. I have spoken to men of other races and believe me when I say that most of them are open if not curious about really being with a black woman. A lot of them feel that they would just get shot down by us so they don’t even try….

So I opened myself up and you know what happened? I have dated the United Colors of Benetton when it comes to men; everyone from Russian, Thai, White, Mixed, French, Iranian, Italian, Latin-American, Caribbean and of course my beautiful Black men. I know that everyone has their preferences’ and most of us really want that black man but sometimes, what you need may just come with a different kind of wrapping paper.

**off the subject** Why is my word verification for posting to this blog "fookin"?? lol!!

Rameer "The Circumstance" said...

Hov - you are absolutely correct on the being ready to settle down part. It may not be fair, but it's true.

Jigga is also correct about the Alpha Male thing. I had a discussion with my girl just last week about a male friend she has that used to like her. I asked why they never got together, and she was like "cuz...he was just a friend, I don't look at him like that". Yet she admitted he was a great guy, would make a woman very happy and that he is an attractive dude.

I told her "and you would rather be alone and miserable back then, dealing with all types of unworthy dudes, than to go out on ONE DATE with this great guy to simply see if you could POSSIBLY have a spark?? Foolishness."

Even she had to eventually admit that it didn't make sense to at least go one ONE date just to see. And the unworthy guys she did gave the opp to were inevitable wastes of time...but they were ALPHA MALES. So she was willing to go with that subconsciously.

I agree that a lot of the issues arise from men - but I won't ignore the place that women have in the issues with relationships nowadays. I call it trying to get unattainable Dream people - you have this dreamy image of what a guy should be that can't possibly be met. In the mean time, the guys some of y'all DO get with are unworthy as all hell...and wind up playing y'all. As the years go on, y'all can turn into bitter, lonely, jaded women now willing to take Jerome (from Martin) home cuz you were caught up with foolishness in your viable, more attractive/eligible years.

Have standards...but have realistic ones. And no, I'm not talking about ANYONE specifically...heaven knows I'm absolutely not talking about Brooke-Ra. She doesn't fit the bill of the women I'm describing.

Annamaria said...

The Circumstance will get tased for the first time in 2010!!!!

Honestly there are a LOT of things to say about this blog but he ain't put a ring on it yet sooo I can't

But one thing I would say is that if a man felt he was compromising by marrying me the I would definitely not marry him....EVER

AB said...

Part of this media frenzy is also merely a plot to have us appear desperate. Try not to fall for everything that the media throws your way. I know just as many black single males wishing to settle down as women.

Now I do often wonder how the numbers would fare had not so many of our brothers not be taken out by the drug epidemic that destroyed some of our communities in the 80's. The desecration that those activities caused is amazing.

Rameer "The Circumstance" said...

@ Elizabeth - I agree that Black women should explore their options. They are the least likely of any group in the country to date outside their race according to studies. but here's the irony - I find that many Black women who finally do allow themselves to date outside of their race don't hold the non-Black men up to the impossible standards they held the Black men up to! WTF??

That's a completely different topic, one that Black men engage in at times too - but it IS an observation I've made over the years when it comes to Black women who previously weren't open to dating outside of their race, and then allow themselves to take a chance.

Rameer "The Circumstance" said...

AB (is that YOU, Professor??) is 100% correct about the media angle about this. I addressed that last week on my Facebook profile...


Anonymous said...

I can't say too much either Annamaria since I don't have a ring yet either (even thought i just contradicted myself with my previous long-a$$ response lol) however, the both of us discussed marriage and he knows that that is what I want. We are both working towards that but neither of us are ready...

@Rameer: I have noticed that is some women too. I think that's part of the insecurity that a lot of us feel: "I can't believe that he is actually interested in ME" yadda yadda but it's not all of us. You're right though; it's another topic for another day because I could go on and on! lol

Annamaria said...

@ Elisabeth...That's what's important.... As long as YOU & HIM know what u want & you guys are working towards that... that is all that matters...

I agree that all women sometimes expect a man to be perfect & that's just not going to happen...the same way we aren't perfect.... especially in these times you gotta roll wit da punches.... Who knew I'd be home with my baby for this long...but I got a man that stands by me... :)

@ Rameer bbbbbuuuuuuuzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Speaking of supportive man....How funny is it that Austin's new stock to watch is TASR: Taser

Geeque4u said...

@Anna - There is no reason to tase Rameer because his comments were very valid!! :-)
I must admit, it is hard our here for the sisters and I feel for them, but like Rameer said some of them think they are owed the perfect man. These very same women then turn around and take a chance on a man that doesn't have NONE of their criteria and complain when things dont work out.
Rameer, hit it on the Nail.
As for myself, once I met the women that I knew I could have a life with and raise children, I PUT the ring out it. I am going on 5 years and I have no regrets!!!

Annamaria said...

@Geeque : pay attention & learn the blog rules. NO ONE BUT ME IS ALLOWED TO BE FIRST ON THE BLOG! If you are you get tased.... His points were valid but he should have waited til I said
Also my girl would have tased your ass if u hadn't put a ring on it...

Rameer "The Circumstance" said...

***convulses on the ground from electric charges coursing through body***

Annamaria said...

Let's all learn from this first lesson in 2010!

Geeque4u said...

@Anna - LOL

Annamaria said...

b h v ,.. n dxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxbvfggip ;p00[[[lp- loooooooooooooo

(hey what do u expect she's only 5 months

Annamaria said...

That was Sophia by the way....

Rameer "The Circumstance" said...

Thanks for the co-sign, Geeque4u. It took me a while to get feeling back in my hands to type after the cute - but trigger-happy - Annamaria tased me...

Geeque4u said...

This topic will forever be an issue...

Stef said...

Okay, all this is fine and good, but Liz, I think you and your sister are the exceptions, not the rule. I have opened myself up to dating outside my race, and asked several non-black men on dates and they all had "fetishes" for dating a black woman, but all said that their families would disown them if they married me. Of course any man who says that no matter what his race is gonna get kicked to the curb with thinking like that, but the reality is most other races of men, especially white men, look at marrying a black woman as a step down. I think it's great that you and your sister have had that experience, but from what I know and what all of my friends who are open to dating outiside our race know is that they might DATE you like Brooke said, but they won't MARRY you.

As for men putting a ring on it, I agree with Jay. Men don't do it til they're the old man in the club. But in their 20's and 30's - they're not ready to settle down because they're having too much fun playing. Unfortunately for us, those are our prime child bearing years, but men can wait til forever to be a parent.

Marriage just isn't sexy, not to men anyway. Women have been trained to seek marriage, while men have been trained to avoid it. We're on two totally different planets when it comes to marriage and commitment, and that's why men aren't putting a ring on it.

phillygrl said...

of course this is an age old convo we've been having since college. funny thing is, my non-black friends who got married say, right out of school...are now divorced(so are the black ones). the one's who were never married, are still single, wanting to be married, but we all know the GRASS is GREENER On the other side(& this can be said of MANY circumstances), however, as others have mentioned, if you can get your head & heart around it...other nationalities are an option if you let it, but you have to be able to take that I mean , I had 2 freinds one dated an Indian guy & one dated an older white guy --wined & dined..flwe all over the world, picked her up in the Mclaren, all that, but you know what his previous Black girlfriend had gone to work on an assignment in Japan & he still pined away for her, so she knew it wouldn't be a lasting relatinoshipAND she was kinda embarressed b/c she said peopel stared at them when they were out( I beleive this to an extent, however she has somewhat of a complex anyway, so not sure if I beleive it totally) ...the one who dated the indian guy thought had the same comment, said she didn't feel comfortable(tot eh public) that he was Indian. She felt cool with him, but felt like peopel were staring at them..Im like guys have a point, but it sounds crazy to me...

Rameer "The Circumstance" said...

Phillygrl - I *think* you mean ETHNICITIES, not nationalities. Nationalities would refer to the nation your are a citizen of, and the overwhelming majority of us are American, regardless of ancestral origin.

Not trying to be a smart ass at all - that just bugs/peeves me when people call a Puerto Rican, Asian or even white cat a "different nationality" - cuz how many people are really flying over to Japan or France to date one of their citizens?

We all share the same nation. We have different ethnic backgrounds, however.

Okay...that's enough of one of my OCD's being manifested for the day...lolz!

Annamaria said...

Should I be apologizing cuz my boo's black & I'm PR???? LOL

If it makes you ladies feel any better ya'll can have as many Puerto Ricans as you guys want...I don't want them!!!!!!!!!! lol

DMoe said...

Men may pick, but women decide.

Ultimately, all the dudes on here got "chosen" one way or the other along the way.

In my opinion, this comes down to the choices, and men/women make them based on what they like. For men, we are "hardwired" (lol) to know that there are just some chicks that we will dig that just won't dig US.

We might not be the alpha male, we might not fit this or that, and at the club or anywhere else, the choices are being made in the blink of an eye all day/night long.

That's a reality for men.

I agree, we are partly to blame for the plight spoken, the declining numbers, etc. but there's also the part where every guy on here can name a few chicks HE wanted along the way that just didnt feel him. There are many variables for the choices we all make. There are also some women who can't really "see" the things that are important "long term" at a certain in their lives, just like we men can't. We're all evolving and growing along the way. If our paths cross at certain points, the stars won't align.

But even the flyest man won't be the "alpha male" or the certain kind of dude SHE's checking for at a particular moment - based on THAT woman's choice.

As for the buffet, "Buffets" mean nothing to the guy who only likes steak, potatoes and salad. They also don't serve him well if he likes a hearty meal without overdoing it...No need to pile his plate up. That's just not his thing.

Men can have lots of "options" but if only he wants what he wants, and enjoys the certain kind of thing, then the limits are what they are.

Stay thirsty.

Grownblknfocused said...

That ABC News Nightline was based out of Atlanta. I used to live in the NY, now I'm in Atlanta. There are lots of bitter/shallow women from that interview with Steve Harvey in Atlanta. That is just a sample of how signficant the issue really is. I won't go into great details because Rameer was 100% on point in the second post. Well said, couldn't have agreed more

I will say this, this is a single black woman issue and THAT'S IT. Like I told other black women in regards of this story, When was the last time you saw a black male complain on national tv about being married? It's all about compromise in business or relationship. In the ABC Newsline clip, it's a lil different since those women are doing their thang career wise. However, their ego will prevent them with being someone full time.

Tony said...

I have been married since I was 23 years old. I wanted to be married then and I still do. I enjoy being married and having children and I can't see my life anyother way so I don't think that I was trained to avoid it and, frankly, I think it is very sexy to be married.

I do agree that people are trained one way or the other and I think it has a lot to do with who they grew up with, hometraining and environment.

Most of you have seen Brooke and I write about our family life together. Not every woman in our family had solid marriages but most were married at one point or another. I think statistically, our family would rate high marks in the marriage department. Most of those who did marry stayed married for 30+ years. The men in our family were strong, family men who directly or indirectly instilled those values into the younger generation. Now, all but a few of the grand and great-grand children are married, happily and long term.

I believe that marriage and family values are passed on from generation to generation.

Tony said...

@Annamaria - Don't apologize I'm black and my wife is PR!

Annamaria said...

Thanks Tony... I was afraid of being tased for a second..LMAO

Congrats for putting a ring on it & keeping it there...I know it's not easy but it's nice to hear that it's worth it.

**Thanks Brooke now that damn Beyonce song is in my head**

Jaz said...

It IS a single black woman problem, which is what the topic is. You don't hear men complaining about being married because this issue doesn't affect them.

I don't think it's a case of men choosing and women deciding. Men choose who they date AND who they marry. Women can decide who to date, but not always who to MARRY. There's a difference. Most women don't turn down marriage proposals, because most men don't propose to women who they don't think will say yes. This topic isn't about choosing who to date. This topic is about why men don't propose. Very different.

I agree, I don't think the MAJORITY of men find marriage as attractive...usually not at a young age anyway. I think men know if they will get married ONE DAY, but right now, most men are doing their thing career-wise AND relationship-wise...while women seem to just be doing their thing career-wise. I know women who haven't had committed relationships for YEARS, just like the video showed. They date, but can't get the commitment from men who all think they're wonderful, but won't be exclusive. I don't think black women have a hard time dating at all. I think it's the commitment that we can't get, from good guys or bad ones.

Rameer "The Circumstance" said...

As someone who works in the media, I will advise you all - don't take any credence in the videos, blogs, and books on this crap. Cuz, truthfully, there is no CREDIBLE research that would prove this as the disaster that it's being made out to be. Women of all races are having a hard time finding suitable mates and getting married. and the overwhelming majority of Black females who work in the media are taking high exception with this crap being put out and getting Black women all riled up over it.

Just cuz there's a point in something doesn't mean it's not being manipulated for certain reasons. Here's what a Black female reporter I know wrote as her Facebook status today:

"...starting to think the "light is right, Pretty hair" crap I heard as a kid has been replaced by "no one wants Black women" reports/articles/blogs. Talk about overkill. This convo piece has gone from once in a while to at least 3 times a week. I haven't cried conspiracy in a while... But I'm tempted."

She also wrote:

"Maybe "Unwanted Black women" is this year's "Black men are absentee fathers" or "Latinos are all illegal" or "Whites are racists."

Damn evil media... (oh wait, that's me)"

most of the people who commented on her stat agreed...and we all work in media and know how this ish is manipulated and twisted.

While a good topic of discussion...I'd say don't sip the kool-aid that the media feeds you when it comes to us. I see it firsthand all the time...I've even had to threaten white producers to not put out stories that had blatantly untrue elements about people of color in my past years.

Brooke said...

Hey everyone,

Busy day today so I'm just now able to chime in.

Jaz, I can relate to what you say about being single for years. I feel like most of my committed relationships happened in my 20's - with men who were of the same age. Go figure. It seems the older I got, the more I met men who were not interested in committed relationships. Somee had been there and done that and don't want to get married again because they had bad breakups/divorces. Some had just come into their own career-wise and could enjoy dating several different women because they didn't have to put so much energy into growing their careers.

I don't think men and women are bad or good or can't get along or whatever else. I think sometimes we want different things at different points in our lives and women are just going to have to wait a little longer than they used to. The numbers don't help, and they don't lie - but there are ways around it if we want to get what we want out of life.

If your desire is to get married, you can find a way to make that happen that may not involve a black man, or a tall man, or a rich man, or a man without kids. I think we really have to take a real look at what it is we want in life and see if what we want is IMPORTANT or if it's REALISTIC.

Most of my single friends don't want a baller, they don't a man who's 6'5, they don't want a man who is just rich or who looks like some celebrity. I don't think their list of wants is unrealistic or unattainable. And to them I say keep your standards high. But my friends may not be the majority - they might be...who knows.

To Liz, I feel like you and your sister MAY be in the minority of women who have had success dating non-black men...but I think that's going to start changing drastically with new attitudes. I've grown up around white people all my life, gone to school with them and traveled in their circles all my life and I've had a few white men approach me...but only in school - not really in my adult life. I'd be open to it, and I don't think I come across as unapproachable to them - but I've never been asked out by any. I know I have my likes and preferences, but I think black women may have to start taking chances on what they want and go after it...whether it's a non-black man, a short man, etc. Even if it IS a black man - maybe we should start doing some of the asking out and initiator. Some men may not like that because they want to be the aggressor or the "chaser" - but I'm sure most would appreciate that you showed the interest and they'll take it from there.

All these numbers/reports may be true or factual, they may not - they may not show the whole picture, or they may paint it perfectly. But what it does is show us is that maybe we need to take this "problem" and find a way to come up with our own solutions. Be creative, be open and direct your own path and go after what you want.

Geeque4u said...

@Jaz - You made some valid points, especially that last sentence.. (I think it's the commitment that we can't get, from good guys or bad ones.)

Brooke said...

I agree Jaz, I've never had a hard time dating. But men tend to date you, and you, and you too :) So to that I say, you do the same thing. You date around just like they do. Why sit at home wondering why you can't get this guy to commit when you could be out dating several men yourself? I don't mean "you", but in general.

If you're going to be single, have fun and be single. We can't cry about it, we can only try to turn it into a positive.

The only issue I have with being single is the childbearing aspect. I think with me, my desire for motherhood definitely outweighs my desire to be a wife. I've never really desired to be a WIFE. But I'd love to be a mother one day. While I'd like to birth my own child, I have to open myself up to other possibilities - whether it's adoption, or simply being the greatest aunt ever, or even possibly raising a child on my own. While the latter isn't attractive to me in the least, I can't ever say never to any of these. Other than that, being single doesn't bother me at all. I'd rather be single than be in a relationship or married just to say that I am.

Stef said...

I don't believe everything I hear/read in the media - but some of those numbers are true. I just think they may be presenting us the wrong way...but not sure the facts are necessarily wrong. This has been a discussion that goes back further than last week. There was a Time mag article written on it, and several studies. I don't think you need to work in "media" to understand how we're portrayed, and it may be skewed, but it IS a real issue with black women who want to get married one day.

I've had this discussion with black women, yound and old, married and single, who all are going thru the same things - LONG before any media reports about it. While the media may be evil, that doesn't mean that this isn't a real issue to hundreds of thousands of black women across America. Our stories may be different, our backgrounds, etc., but I DO believe the problem is real.

Rameer "The Circumstance" said...

Stef - you read it in Time, right? That's THE MEDIA.

And my thing is THIS - this "problem" isn't just amongst Black women! It's been effecting ALL women for years - you guys simply outnumber us, and many men have been putting off marriage and playing the field for a variety of reasons. Yet it gets reported as being an inherently Black woman problem - or scrutiny over white, Asian, or Latina women. No scrutiny over Indian women, or look at how this problem manifests itself in other countries, the age ranges, percentages, etc.

Comment from another alum of mine on the same Black reporter's status:

"I did a thesis proposal on the declination of Black marriages for Dr. Bank's class and trust me there is VERY little empirical data out there, to the point that I failed the class and had to retake it a year later..."

Like I said. I'm not saying it isn't a legit concern. But how it's being presented is poppycock and ridiculous...and whenever a story gains notoriety in the media from one outlet, everyone wants to jump on that story and propagate it, cuz it WORKS and garners the desired attention to whatever outlet is dealing with it. Which is why you can find a million different reports and analytical studies on ANY "story of the moment".

Like I said - don't ignore the issue. But don't sip the kool-aid that makes it bigger than what it is and "Doomsday For Black women". It really isn't...Black women are getting married to Black men and having children all the time.

And do keep in mind - y'all live in NYC. DC, ATL, NYC - hardly conducive to finding good relationships for the majority of those populations, not just black women.

Grownblknfocused said...

I skimmed through most of the comments but I'm surprised no one mentioned this (however I brought this to light with Brooke a few days ago).

I believe we in the black culture forgot how to love just because! Back in the 60s and 70s when our parents were growing up, most were broke and had each other. The songs the artists played back then were more of quality, got each other and that's all that matters soul movement. Today's music is more about "who invented sex", "how many b*tches I can get" and "if you liked it you shoulda put a ring on it". Blame BET too. They have a medium to put a positive light on Black people (male and female) to promote communities and build foundations. Instead, the kids come home to watchin 106 & park where 9 songs of the top 10 is either about flossin whips or dissin'/degradin chicks. They all about the money, which is partially sad but it's business. However, it has alot of influence on our people. Whatever these ringtone songs about, it isn't helping why single black women are crying about being not married.

Also, just because are single black sisters are striving up the corporate ladder, becoming attorneys, judges, executives, doesn't justify they need or deserve to be wedded. Accomplishments in the boardroom doesn't equate to accomplishments in the household. A lot of these sisters who wear there "i got my college degree, masters and phd on their sleeve" in many cases make a dude turn the other way making him think "Why would she even want/need me?" Successful sisters, its all about compromise--bottom line. Talking about "I got this, or I have that" and listening to your Beyonce plixie dust indepdendent camp fire songs when you with your AKA and Delta buddies will continue to snowball. Running to Steve Harvey and reading the cheat code on how a Man acts will not solve anything. It all starts with self-compromise and what you can bring to the table for two (and not what you have).

Stef said...

I never said Time WASN'T the media Rameer. The Time article came out years ago, so this isn't a new story of the moment - this has been a discussion for at least 10 years now, not just a story for right now. So that first line wasn't necessary or to come off that way.

And if there's no facts to support that what the media is saying is true, then since you work in "media" (which you never let us forget) then why don't you write a blog that shows that we ARE getting married as much as whites, asians, latinos or indians. Show me facts that say we ARE getting married at great numbers.

Oh wait, you probably don't have time, because after work in the media.

All I'm saying is just because the media portrays us a certain way doesn't mean that all the numbers they come up with are false. And just like we need data to show that what they say is false ALSO means that those who think the media are lying should show us facts that show us that as well. All I hear is don't drink the Kool-Aid, but no one is giving me facts to the contrary to show that I shouldn't. At least the video broke it down, all you're saying is "don't believe it." So what? I should just believe YOU then... because you said so. Okay, yeah, I'll go with that then.

Jaz said...


So are you saying women should shrink who they are in order to make a man feel more confident about himself? Most women don't have to say what they have and what they've accomplished. It just shows. I don't know any women who come off like "I got this and that." But a man will see you taking care of yourself and handling your business and come to his own conclusions.

I've approached men who were blue collar, didn't have a college education, had kids, all that - and they told me that I wouldn't want them because I have so much going on for me...even though I approached THEM. It happens on a regular basis where men see you dress a certain way or drive a certain car or have your own house and ASSUME that you're out of their league. The only men who will date me are men who feel they have as much as I do. And those are men who don't want the commitment NOW...they want it later on in life when they're done playing the field.

And let's not get it twisted, men have their own requirements too. I can't say how many times I've read this blog where I see Rameer saying he won't date a woman with a weave, or one that has kids. Yet if a woman said something similar, she's being too picky...or she should be more open. If he can have his preference, no matter how shallow it may be to someone else, then why are women told that our standards are too high? I use Rameer as an example, but I meet men like that all the time who can have THEIR list, but if a woman has a list, then her list is unrealistic, or her standards are too high. Some might say that not dating a woman because she wears braids or has a child is the wrong reason to overlook her...but it's rare that men are criticized for THEIR preferences. Why can't we have ours? Like someone said, most women don't have unrealistic lists, they just have things on their the most men can't live up to - which is a character issue, not a he gotta be a baller, or have money or be this tall issue.

THATgirl said...

I have to quote Jaz, and I'm not changing ONE word:

"I've approached men who were blue collar, didn't have a college education, had kids, all that - and they told me that I wouldn't want them because I have so much going on for me...even though I approached THEM. It happens on a regular basis where men see you dress a certain way or drive a certain car or have your own house and ASSUME that you're out of their league. The only men who will date me are men who feel they have as much as I do. And those are men who don't want the commitment NOW...they want it later on in life when they're done playing the field."

That's the problem I tend to encounter with blue collar men. I seem to gravitate towards them (I think I see them as more "down to earth"), but in the end, it comes out that they were never convinced I would stick with them because they weren't "on my level". The white collar types I've dated--they've had the biggest chips on their shoulders because of their successes--and I didn't have the time nor the energy for that.

Grownblknfocused said...

So are you saying women should shrink who they are in order to make a man feel more confident about himself?


I never stated that. All I said was "compromise". Why attempt to readjust/twist my words? Single black females want to be married. If it isn't working now, look yourself in the mirror and figure out what else you are bringing to the table to the other person besides what you personally accomplished. But my opinion was more based on the type of woman that was from the newsclip.

Well there are some elite sisters in a different category but doesn't justify you are marriage material. Not saying commit a bum dude with nothing going on for himself but there are quality guys out there. Many women are naive on what they really want. They sound all the same--I want honest, with something going on for himself, yadda yadda yadda (and sounds like any other female) while throwing in their there I got my own car, place like they are suppose to be handed an award for that. As an adult, you are suppose to have that! Most quality dudes don't really care what you got, it's more on the lines of what can you do to make "us" better besides your own money. The men blogging today have been saying that all day long.

Let's be very honest with this, I read today that men don't have a problem dating, it's more on the commitment line. Depends on where each person is at in life is that person's mentality. But in general for men, a man is as faithful as his option(s) as sad to say. It is socially acceptable.

Besides you pretty much said my point referring to Rameer's past blogs. Him choosing to "date" vs "committing" are two different animals. His "dating" women on particulars isn't commitment.

Jaz said...


First of all, I didn't attempt to change your words. I asked you a question. That's what a "?" means. I was asking for clarity.

And if Rameer won't date them, he won't marry them either.

And I think you're proving my point. It's socially acceptable for men to date several women at once, but if a woman does it, she's a whore. The problem is more women want a commitment than men do. That was the point of the blog, so I'm trying to stay on topic. And all you've accomplished in saying is that women have to compromise while men don't. Men can date as they please and choose the commitment when THEY want to, and women just have to deal with it. No amount of female introspection is going to change that so long as a man is as faithful as his options. Men have more options than women do, so all you're saying is men can't be faithful unless they have limited options. And that makes men sound weak. And I don't believe that to be true of them ALL. Only the ones who feel women are the problem.

You say "you're supposed to have all that" as far as a car, a career, a house, etc. as a grown up person - yet women are criticized when we overlook the man who DOESN'T have all that stuff as a grown man. Doesn't that sound a bit contradictory. One minute you say "compromise" and then you say "as an adult you're supposed to have all that." But then if we don't date the dude who DOESN'T have all that as an adult, then we're being picky.

I personally think you'll find any reason to make the women be the ones who have to take a look in the mirror, but I don't think men are told to do the same thing when it comes to relationships.

Stef said...

Preach Jaz!

And you're right, it IS all one big contradiction. And I think the answer is date non-black men, or remain single so as not to compromise your standards. You shouldn't have to ocmpromise yourself in order to be with a man. A relationship is about give and take, but you shouldn't have to lose yourself in one simply to have one. Men have standards, and so should we.

Jay said...

I don't think a man is as faithful as his options. A man is faithful if he chooses to be. We have WAY more options than women do, but that doesn't mean all men are assholes who will date EVERY woman they can just because they have the option to. A person will be faithful if they want to be. And if you get into a relationship with a woman knowing you can't be faithful, or string them along, or try to keep them in your back pocket, then you're not a real man. Period.

Rameer "The Circumstance" said...

@ Stef - I take great joy in some of your comments. Really - it gives me a chuckle.

Yup - I work in media! And no, I'm not going to write a blog on it - not cuz I don't have the time to do it, but because I realized a long time ago (actually in dealing with whites) that when you say something refuting what people believe, it doesn't matter if you have a book of stats and facts, you spend an hour looking stuff up to present it, whatever - most people will believe whatever they want to believe and maintain their doubt and skepticism. And learning that lesson leads me to only quote facts and stats when it comes to sports or movie $$$, for the most part - cuz I tend to remember and see those specific stats daily on my own accord.

This is the age of the Internet. Information is readily available. The fact that I work for the media is relevant because I SEE how these people get their figures and "facts", and how easily these things are manipulated, lied about and twisted to get YOU to sip that kool-aid. Which you apparently do so readily...hell, to this day over half the public thinks Iraq is responsible for 9/11.

Don't believe me? Want evidence to support your thoughts or prove me wrong? YOU look it up. I know what I know...and if you spent three days in a major newsroom, you'd be *shocked* at what's shoveled to you that you eat up DAILY.

As far as quoting me on past blogs - Grownblknfocused hit it on the head. My list was on who I date, not on who I was or am committing to marry. And, I think I specifically wrote that women should maintain standards, just not unrealistic ones. I also wrote I wasn't talking about anyone specifically - so when I write those things, and someone takes it some type of way, I look at that as saying A LOT about the person who took it personally or that it got under their skin. Cuz if y'all start talking about cheaters or deadbeat dads, I'm not gonna take offense - cuz it doesn't apply to me in the least.

I've got a shoot to go do. IF this is one of those blogs that devolve into me being The Bad Guy, hey - I welcome it. That's just THE CIRCUMSTANCE people have to deal with.


Jaz said...

I don't know ONE man (or woman) who would MARRY someone that they'r not willing to DATE. Makes no sense at all.

And I think we should be careful about saying what someone believes or not. You can't say "the media is lying, but I'm not." Anyone can makes a statement that comes off as fact. You don't know Stef any more than I do, so I think it's wrong to assume she "readily believes" anything. I don't think she concretely said what she believes, she just said it could be true and that it's an issue. She doesn't come off as a know it all or self righteous, and people are entitled to believe what they want without having to be ridiculed for it.

Jay, I love that you can comment without being an asshole in disagreement! :) Some people revel in that...but no one on THIS blog of course :)

Stef said...

Apparently Rameer overlooked the post where I wrote that I don't believe everything I read or hear in the media. How convenient. I don't "readily" accept anything - which is why I don't accept something you say just because YOU say it either. You think you have everyone's number Rameer, but you don't. You don't know me or what I believe any more than I know you. So please spare me the bullshit and don't tell me what I "readily" believe. If you DID write a blog with facts, I would believe you, because they'd be FACTS. You just THINK everyone is close-minded and that you are the ALL KNOWING, ALL ENLIGHTENED one. Gimme a break.

As for marrying someone you wouldn't date - yeah...that makes sense. I guess you just skip the dating phase and go straight to the alter.

Jay, 2010 and I still think you're the MAN!!!

Jay said...

Yeah, I don't get the "that's who I said I wouldn't date, not who I said I wouldn't commit or marry" - that made no sense to me either. I can't think of someone I wouldn't date, but that I'd marry. Someone please explain that to me.

Brooke said...

Yeah, me too...I don't get that either :)

Grownblknfocused said...


I believe you are putting a twist on THIS topic. THIS topic is about single black women and why they aren't married. Pointing the finger on men that "date" isn't commitment. Trying to support your argument on a particular person's dating situation isn't commitment. I try to justify why they are single using general examples from past experience and want to come to a conclusion on the best route for them to get there. My solution is through compromise. You think it's "shrinking standards". Regardless, if SBFs don't want to look themselves in the mirror on fixing THIS situation, it will continue to snowball and we will see another story like this soon this year.

DMoe said...

The fact that this blog conversation has become so contentious actually speaks volumes.

There are many things to be learned from both sides of the aisle on the issue.

Just my observation...

Jaz said...

Actually, the TOPIC is Brooke's BLOG , not the video. She used it as an example of the stories she's heard last week, but her QUESTION was why black men aren't proposing and if marriage is not attractive to them. I'm VERY clear on what the TOPIC is.

You said women are single because they don't compromise. BROOKE'S BLOG QUESTION was what are MEN compromising. I haven't heard YOU answer that yet. You are pointing the finger at black women, but haven't answered any real question yet. Rameer, Jay and Tony did..and so did Geeque...and didn't make it all about what the WOMAN was doing wrong. All you're saying is women need to look in the mirror, but not addressing what a man is compromising. If your answer is the reason that men aren't proposing is because women aren't compromising, then tell me what they're not compromising? Because most of the women on this blog say that they DO compromise, they DO ask out the blue collar brothas. You can focus on the women in the clip all you want, but Brooke's REAL question is about women as a whole and why men aren't proposing and what are THEY compromising.

@DMoe, I agree, there is something to be learned from both sides. But all I hear from Grown is "women need to look themselves in the mirror." We're not learning anything from that other than it's OUR fault men don't propose. I appreciated Jay's response when he took some responsibility for me in saying sometimes they'll let a great woman go because they're not ready or are scared. To me THAT was a real answer.

Judah said...

And my observation is that Rameer is...was...and will forever be the biggest homo on the planet and I'm glad that the blogosphere is starting to realize it. HAPPY NEW YEAR!!! CHEERS! LMAO

Jaz said...

correction: for "men"

Ms. Penn said...

Happy New Year everyone!

I've been reading, but not had time to comment. I just got through reading the comments (so many!) and I's devolved into finger pointing. It's not all women's fault and not all men's fault. And seeing how we interact on here today shows a big part of our relationships with each other. I do believe that black love is alive, but I'd be lying if I said it was alive and "well."

I think too many times we compete with each other rather than love each other. Women fight to get a man, keep him, make him want her, etc. Men fight against commitment, well...SOME do.

You can't say women need to look in the mirror unless you have yourself. Some black women feel like we love our black men, but that they don't like or love us back - because they're too busy telling us what we're doing wrong. But if we tell a brotha he needs to step up, we have bad attitudes. This goes both ways. Men feel entitled to a good woman just women feel entitled to a good man. What's wrong with that. I think we deserve it, and if you can bring that to the table, then a man should too.

Jaz is correct about one thing - men are rarely criticized for their preferences, while we are. Most women don't flaunt their success, or feel entitled because they have it. They just are attracted to what THEY are...and there's nothing wrong with that. Men are the same, and whether it's geogrpahical or not, whoever wrote that a man will overlook certain things if a woman doesn't possess a certain trait is WRONG. They WILL and they DO all the time.

Your reality may be different than someone else's, but don't dismiss their reality simply because it isn't yours. Everyone's experience on this blog is valid, and we should look for solutions if you feel there's a problem rather than pointing fingers.

Jay said...

I agree with what Ms. Penn said about competition between us. We're too busy trying to break each other down rather than lift each other up. I think some men are guilty of this when we come across a woman who has her shit together - like Jaz was saying, sometimes we draw our own conclusions. I think black are broken down so much in society that we assume our women is going to do that too, so we break her down, or try to, before they can. Not all women want to break us down, but we see their success as an attempt to do that sometimes. We ourselves might not feel worthy, so we make it about her. I feel Stef and Jaz on that point and I agree that it happens.

But I also believe there are so many facets to this discussion that it all can't be solved in one day. We should simply be able to discuss it without telling someone what we think they believe, telling people to look themselves in the mirror without knowing their circumstances or experiences, and basically making it someone else's fault. It's our "collective" faults for the breakdown of our relationships and we need to fix it together.

Jay said...

**wow, typos!**

What I meant to write is:

I think black MEN are broken down so much in society that we assume that our WOMAN is going to do that too, so we break her down, or try to, before SHE can.

And of course I'm speaking generally, not specifically.

Stef said...

Brooke, you should marry Jay :)

That would be one success story!

Rameer "The Circumstance" said...

@ Judah - your momma! Lmfao!!!

I see the 2010 bitchassness has started...

As far as marrying someone I wouldn't date - you are all correct. I wouldn't marry someone that I wouldn't date. Fast typing and not thinking through clearly what I was actually trying to say made for that snafu.

@ Stef - if you believe I think I'm all-knowing and The Enlightened One, please keep believing so! It brings me great joy and amusement when people inaccurately assess me on this blog (and in general). Perhaps some of it is my own doing - but some of it is also in the eye of the beholder/reader.

And I don't have everyone's number - you definitely got me there. My phone holds enough numbers - pretty sure I don't WANT everyone's number, either.

If I pissed anyone off - GOOD. Kick your computer, or better yet KICK ROCKS. And if I hit home...GOOD AS WELL.

Apparently, you just didn't get THE CIRCUMSTANCE you were dealing with. Lmao!

For the majority of you who are willing to engage in rational conversation and can simply agree to disagree...keep on keepin' on.


Jay said...

and I'd gladly put a ring on it ;)

Loved Tony's response by the way. Not all men are afraid to propose and have been taught to get married. I was raised to value marriage, and it sounds to me like it could be a generational issue.

Brooke, since you were raised by marriage minded people, are you frustrated in finding other marriage minded men?

Anonymous said...

people who take delight in being assholes are sad.

Rameer "The Circumstance" said...

I feel the same way about people scared to post under their own name.


Stef said...

If people wrong assess you, maybe it IS your own doing. I have no problem with people disagreeing, but it's when it becomes degrading that I take offense. Just because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't mean you're right. You come off like anyone who disagrees with you is stupid, and that's foul. That's not rational discussion, that's being a jerk. Perhaps that's your goal...and if so, then great. Be that.

@Jay, thank you for being YOU. I won't ever try to tell people what THEY believe, especially if I don't KNOW them.

Good topic today Brooke! As always. I appreciate your take on certain subjects and how you leave it open for discussion. But mostly I appreciate the respect you give to all of your commenters. Respect should be contagious :)

Anonymous said...

nobody cares what you think

Stef said...


Funny how you made a plain statement and only one person took it to heart :-) LOL!!

Grownblknfocused said...

Jaz said...

Actually, the TOPIC is Brooke's BLOG , not the video. She used it as an example of the stories she's heard last week, but her QUESTION was why black men aren't proposing and if marriage is not attractive to them. I'm VERY clear on what the TOPIC is.

Manipulation of words #1--who said black men aren't proposing? Last time I checked, I know a handful of black men that are married and I'm sure you do too.

You said women are single because they don't compromise? Maniuplation of words #2 - Correction I said Single Black women that are single SBF's..(didn't say women in general). Then that would defeat the purpose of this blog, its about SINGLE BLACK WOMEN, not women in general. I suggested maybe they should compromise if they want to be married. You tried to imply that I meant women were "shrinking standards". 
Some men do compromise (just like certain women do), maybe that's why they are married...ya think? Because him and his mate compromised to a degree to be partners (marriage is a partnership you know.

BROOKE'S BLOG QUESTION was what are MEN compromising. I haven't heard YOU answer that yet.

Well I can't speak for all men but I will generally state that you will have to ask your black male friend and ask him , what did you compromise to be married? Every person's situation and answers will vary.

It just seems you are taking this topic a little too personal by twisting words around. You trying to make this more complex than what it really is. All I stated "SBF, you want to be married" Adjust yourself, look yourself in the mirror and compromise yourself, living, lifestyle to make it work for you. It isn't hard (but maybe for some, it is).

Rameer "The Circumstance" said...

I didn't know I became degrading. Hmm. Perhaps we should take a survey tomorrow to see if everyone agrees. Outside of you, Judah and the bitchassness of the various anonymouses that pop up occasionally, I don't see anyone taking offense to what I wrote today.

I don't think anyone who disagrees with me is stupid, nor have I said such. As many people have disagreed with me on here, it's funny I've never read that before. Hmm.

But hey - I'm me, and anyone who doesn't like it...such is life. My opinion isn't gonna be liked by everyone, nor is it a prerequisite that everyone has to like me. There are plenty who do...don't know if you noticed, but I'm not exactly pandering for fans or new friends from everyone.

Wasn't attempting to degrade you. I've degraded on this blog a long time ago - you can compare the willful degradation of past arguments with the anonymouses and how I approach you, Stef.

Brooke said...

Thanks Stef,

and you're right, I hope respect IS contagious...especially on my blog :)


I'm not frustrated in finding marriage minded men because I'm not so sure I've always been marriage minded myself. I've always been open to the idea, but I was never taught to seek it. While most women were dreaming of their wedding day, I was thinking about what I wanted to be when I grew up, where I might live, if I'd be able to do what I loved and be happy in life. And I find that I'm still thinking of those things. The only thing that has changed is that I might want to see a child in there somewhere, and that having husband might help with that :)

But no, I'm not frustrated. I get frustrated with people who attempt to waste my time...or who feel they are entitled to something that I'm not. Like someone said, it's not just women who feel entitled to a certain relationship, men feel this way too. And I have no problem with that. Just make sure what you seek is what you're willing to give - and if so, then you'll find it.

Rameer "The Circumstance" said...

@ Stef - I didn't take anything to heart. I simply said I feel the same way about a certain type of person.

Presume much? Lmfao...


Jaz said...


you know a handful? well isn't that grand. Too bad that handful isn't the majority. Funny how in NONE of your responses before your LAST one not ONCE did you say "men ARE proposing" or "Men DO compromise." It was all about WOMEN and what THEY need to do - which wasn't Brooke's question at all.

And if anyone is twisting words, it's YOU. But I won't go back and forth with you. Clearly you have it in your mind that SBF are the problem themselves, not that men have anything to do with it. If I'll let you rock with that. I'm sure you're perfect and don't have adjust YOURSELF. whatever.

Thanks Jay for actually understanding the blog, the topic, and giving a real answers. It wasn't hard, but I guess for some it is.

@Stef, let it go...not worth it. Everyone is respectful for the most part on this blog, and for those that can't be, ignore them. Brooke's blog is too good for this foolishness. The rest of us will agree to disagree without being made to feel a certain way about it with their tone. Let it go.

Stef said...

Whatever Rameer. I didn't presume anything...but again, whatever.

Jay said...

@Jaz and Stef,

Let it go. Wasting time. Be good to each other, let the rest go.


Good way of looking at it. I think you have a great attitude with regard to relationships. From what I read of your blogs and your overall disposition on life in general, you'll get whatever it is you want out of life.

Stef said...

You're right Jay. I was gonna ask if "Grown" is married or has a girlfriend...but who cares :)

Jay, do you think that marriage minded men like you find it hard to find marriage material women?

Brooke said...

awww, thanks Jay!

Grownblknfocused said...

@ Jaz

I just find it comedy how you take some words, change them around and point the finger, maybe it's just me. I saw someone co-sign to that a few hours ago but No name, no blame.

Jaz said...

No one cosigned anything. It's just you. You've contradicted yourself MANY times today, but instead of pointing it out, I'll take Jay's advice and let it go.

Jay, I'm interested in hearing your answer to Stef's question myself.

Jay said...

@Stef and Jaz,

No, actually I don't find it hard. I think there are PLENTY of marriage material black women. I think brothas know there is too, which is why they're having fun dating them all! LOL!!

Ladies, I don't know you, but don't let anyone tell you it's your fault for anything. Good women simply outnumber us, and unfortunately we can't marry you all, so some of you will be single, even though you are great women.

And for the record, I hope to marry a black woman one day. Not as a disrespect to other ethnicities, but I believe in our community and building it up to be stronger than what it currently is. I will always try to uplift my sistas, cuz you all uplift us everyday. I know what it means to be a black man in America, and I think no one understands that better than a black woman. You hold us down, and I got mad love for y'all as a result. Don't let anyone tell you you don't derserve the best. Hopefully black men in general will step up to be with you and you'll recognize it when he does. We'll get there, and anyone else no on board with that who want it to be all about YOUR faults can step.

Stef said...

Love you Jay!

Jaz said...


Grownblknfocused said...

:) good topic . Enjoyed everyone's feedback :)

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